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Friday, February 09, 2007

An Interesting site

Take a look at Anglicana Ecclesia! I have added it to my 'links'. biretta tip: Fr. Al Kimel

10 Comments:

Blogger wyclif said...

A page recommended by Fr. Kimel, purporting to be about Anglicanism, with lots of anti-Protestant rhetoric?

I am not really that surprised, Jeff.

3:26 am  
Anonymous William Tighe said...

A lovely site; and one whjich shows very well what a forced and bloody obtrusion upon England and its people the bloody "Reformation" was.

3:55 am  
Blogger wyclif said...

Oh, dearie. I never saw that one coming!

I'm thinking of the links at the top of the page. I enjoy Chesterton and Belloc as much as any man.

Oh wait--"Favourite Links." Now I see why Fr. Al likes this page so much. Reciprocity! Carry on...

8:57 am  
Blogger Jeffrey said...

Wyclif, why the animosity towards Fr. Al offering the link? Wouldn't you be willing to academically enter into the discussion about how the reformation took place in England and the politics involved? One need not deny the abuses coming out of the Church in this time and Trent did reform those abuses and tightened them up by requiring a missal to be used. The gift of the printing press allowed for such a tightening to take place along 'conservative' lines.

That aspect of Trent needs commending. Certain theological ideas being made dogma is of course debatable. That a lot of people in England were not prepared to go with the reforms coming out of the Continent is undeniable. There is always two sides to the story and the truth often found somewhere in the middle. It's just a site to read--no need to make it personal.

10:04 am  
Blogger wyclif said...

Jeff,

Suggesting a lack of surprise doesn't count as animosity in my neck of the woods. I don't believe it counts in yours, either. There isn't any.

Where did I deny Protestant abuses? Everyone (I think) knows that Henry VIII, during the period he was actively courting the Lutheran princes and their Confessions he was simultaneously burning a Protestant for every Catholic just to even the score. But that, as you know, cuts both ways. So we both agree that Prots and Catholics were persecuted. So why get all one-sided? Where did I deny that some ("a lot"?) of people weren't prepared to go along with the Reformation? Really, does this argument come down to a marshalling of the number of those killed?

Bill Tighe even felt compelled to use "bloody" twice in the same sentence to get his point across. But I got it. The first time around. The problem for me is that the verities of Anglicanism don't stand or fall on death tallies. So we have two "bloodys" but no sign of "Bloody Mary." Don't you find that just a tad ingenuous?

8:04 pm  
Blogger wyclif said...

EDIT: "Catholic for every Protestant" instead of vice-versa, and "disingenuous."

Sorry.

8:09 pm  
Blogger Jeffrey said...

Wyclif

I am not sure any of it is disingenuous. For one, Fr. Al just mentioned to the site to me in a private e-mail and I acknowledged the source.

I think Prof. Tighe was using a 'word play' on 'bloody! I do believe that there is a Reformed view of history that seems to want to think that my country of residence was ape over the happenings of the reformation. I think that view can be challenged historically. I also think that both RC's and Anglicans were wrong in killing one another and I think apologies should come from both sides. To continue to argue over a period of church history that was fraught with political endeavours and a new sociology of imagination is a bit silly at this stage.

I am happy for you to write something up and I can post it here for a discussion if you like. Again, Fr. Al merely mentioned the site to me--that's it.

8:50 pm  
Anonymous Kevin Davis said...

Wyclif,

A page recommended by Fr. Kimel, purporting to be about Anglicanism, with lots of anti-Protestant rhetoric?

As the proprietor of the webpage, Anglicana Ecclesia, I can assure you that it has never purported to be about Anglicanism but rather the Catholic Church of England. As for "anti-Protestant rhetoric," I think you will find the EWTN audio files to be hardly such. Rather, Fr. Charles Connor presents a fair but Catholic perspective on the Reformation. Likewise, Marcus Grodi (who interviews the Anglican-to-Catholic converts) is hardly known as an anti-Protestant rhetorician; rather, he deals with great integrity the sensitive issue of conversion. I happen to appreciate those who honestly and fairly present their view, whether it be Protestant or Catholic.

5:10 am  
Blogger wyclif said...

Thank you, Kevin.

I'm not sure how a web page titled "Anglicana Ecclesia" can be construed to not refer to Anglicanism in the fullest sense of the word. Here I have been thinking for many years that "Anglicanism" referred to the Catholic Church of England. Is that not the sense of the phrase?

I appreciate your note and the additional information, but I have only read the text on the site and haven't listened to the audio content. I'll get around to this week as I have time. I can say I did enjoy and appreciate a lot of your content.

8:11 am  
Anonymous Kevin Davis said...

Wyclif,

The Church in England prior to the Reformation was called the Ecclesia Anglicana (or sometimes Anglicana Ecclesia as in the Supremacy Act). It is in this sense that I use the term, but the confusion is understandable. I actually do greatly appreciate the "reformed catholic" Church of England, especially its 1662 Book of Common Prayer, its fine spiritual writings (William Law, John Donne, Jeremy Taylor, etc.), and its choral tradition (which was largely built on the work of Thomas Tallis and William Byrd, both 16th century papists). It is an immense tragedy in Christendom today that the Church of England is but a mere reflection of its former self as it dives headlong into moral and social irrelevancy in its appropriation of pagan sexual ethics. Of course, us Catholics of a Roman persuasion do not find this surprising given the ecclesial and epistemic foundations of "reformed catholicism."

10:39 pm  

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