Wednesday, October 25, 2006

Lest There Be Doubt

If there should be any doubt about the realist language of Andrewes when speaking of the presence of Christ in the elements themselves (contra Calvin and other Reformers) look at these words from Ambrose that Andrewes approvingly quotes from.
Postes nostros, ubi est ostium verbi, sanguine Christi, in fide passionis coloremus. The posts of the door of our mouth, that is,our lips, let us dye them with the Blood of Christ, in the faith of His blessed passion.'
Those who would argue that Andrewes actually is saying nothing more than Calvin in his theology of the Eucharist need to answer this sort of language from Andrewes. The truth of the matter is, Andrewes had an appreciation for the theologian the Calvin was, but he himself was no Calvinist.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, Jeff... Don't you know by now that Andrewes was a closet 5-pointer?? And a Zwinglian memorialist??

Come back to presbyterianism, my lad. Stop flirting with the whore of Babylon!

4:34 pm  
Blogger Jeff said...

I have been released and set free from the Law of Puritan legalism--I have no desire to return to my own vomit; wisdom says not to do that.

5:02 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Babylon has her hooks in you and she's not letting go! Read a Jack Chick tract and pray really hard that the purgatory you strive to attain is not the hell you deserve!

Self-proclaimed Prophet (Not!)

7:16 pm  
Blogger Jeff said...

reveal yourself anon. i assume that this is a friend being cheeky or else a really troubled soul.

8:24 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't mind me. I'm simply extending the "right cheek of fellowship"!


A friend, really.

4:34 am  
Anonymous john scholasticus said...


I don't quite see how this item squares with Andrewes' rejection of transubstantiation (earlier post)?

4:53 am  
Blogger Jeff said...


One can have a realist view of presence, such as Andrewes and deny the metaphysical issues surrounding transubstantiation. Andrewes' point is that to maintain the divine presence in the elements does not necessitate that we remove the earthly element, i.e., the substance of bread and wine, from the Sacrament. That's all he's getting at. That Christ is present in the elements Andrewes never denies.

2:10 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is really unseemly to split your infinitives, Jeff. After living in the UK for a few years I'd expect you to have learned that by now. ;-)

Your guess is right. Keep up the great work, my friend.

4:01 pm  
Blogger Jeff said...

Ooooo! I just saw that! I have had one of those days!!!!!

I knew it had to be you and realised it when the fab art show started.

4:24 pm  
Anonymous john scholasticus said...

I think we should all be told who the anonymous one was.

More seriously, I understand that Andrewes must be affirming the Living Presence, but to me (superficially, etc.),if he's endorsing Ambrose, whose language seems pretty literal,he seems (here - that's my query) to be accepting the presence of Christ's blood.

10:10 pm  
Blogger Jeff said...

John the question is what is meant by literal and real etc. The Reformers were greatly affected by nominalism and found it difficult to hear Ambrose's language. Andrewes understood that world since he was one who immersed himself in the Fathers who also spoke with this sort of language. The difference on presence with Andrewes and Rome would be that he would look to the East who were not willing to go beyond the fact to the metaphysical of how. Then Rome dogmatised the transformation of the substance into another substance with the same accidents.

9:54 am  
Blogger KosmicEggburst said...

"Anonymous" raises a good question. If division in the church is not good, then is not the Decet Romanum Papal Bull an honorable thing? And in what manner can it be?

Decet Romanum 1521:

Our decrees which follow are passed against Martin and others who follow him in the obstinacy of his depraved and damnable purpose, as also against those who de-fend and protect him with a military bodyguard, and do not fear to support him with their own resources or in any other way, and have and do presume to offer and af-ford help, counsel and favour toward him. All their names, surnames and rank—however lofty and dazzling their dignity may be—we wish to be taken as included in these decrees with the same effect as if they were individually listed and could be so listed in their publication, which must be furthered with an energy to match their contents.
On all these we decree the sentences of excommunication, of anathema, of our perpetual condemnation and interdict; of privation of dignities, honours and property on them and their descendants, and of declared unfitness for such possessions; of the confiscation of their goods and of the crime of treason; and these and the other sen-tences, censures and punishments which are inflicted by canon law on heretics and are set out in our aforesaid missive, we decree to have fallen on all these men to their damnation.

12:17 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Uh, I'm pretty certain that Anonymous made no such point.


7:22 pm  
Blogger DP Cassidy said...


Pax. Very interesting discussion, especially that passing comment about Andrewes' views matching up closely with EO (as opposed to RCC 4th Lateran affirmation of transubstantiation). I am intrigued by the EO doctrine of presence. Would you mind suggesting some titles for reading and/or study as I consider this in depth during the early part of 07? Thanks!


11:35 pm  
Blogger KosmicEggburst said...

One facet of soteriology that may or may not impact the real presence east/west (as Andrewes seems to find reconciliation in via the EO's fine employment of recapitulation) is the deification principle of the east.

If the history of salvation is recapitulated in the eucharist as Andrewes suggests, this may be one of the finest reconciliation attempts ever known post-Toledo and post-schism.

A superficial look at the ordo salutis of soteriology east/west quickly shows a common operating principle until sanctification(west) versus deification(east) shows something differentiating. One question worth exploring then would be if recapitulation affects the soteriology in the eucharist.

2:46 pm  
Blogger Jeff said...

Recapitualtion affects the soteriology of the eucharist in the sense that it is required for salvation in Andrewes' thought. Below is a portion from my chapter on eucharistic sacrifice that addresses this.

The emphasis that Andrewes makes with regards to anamnesis is derived from the Greek word avnakefalaiw,sasqai ‘to unite,’ or ‘recapitulate.’ The sermon is devoted to making sure that the hearer understands that all things are to be summed up in Christ both in heaven and on the earth. Andrewes sees the connection of what takes place on the earthly altar as an act that is united with the heavenly altar where the Eucharist is the means to connect the Church’s celebration of this ‘recapitulation.’ He describes the memorial by showing how the elements of bread and wine are brought together in Heaven and earth where he says, ‘Both these issuing out of this day’s recapitulation, both in corpus autem aptasti Mihi of this day.’ ‘Remembering’ is not simply recalling a historical event in one’s mind. For Andrewes, it is making that past event simultaneously present with us as the Eucharistic offering is taking place. In so doing, Andrewes brings up the unity of what happens at the Eucharistic offering not only with the past becoming present but also points us to the eschatological sense concerning the glory to come. Lossky notes Andrewes’s use of ‘recapitulation’ as well. He writes,

This ‘remembrance’ of the Church, which is not a simple remembering of events that have taken place, but which actualizes and makes simultaneous, in a recapitulation of time, what is past and what is to come, is of the utmost importance for Andrewes, as we have seen in connection with the Passion-Resurrection. This 'liturgical' conception of time quite naturally takes root in his thought in the conception he has of the liturgy par excellence, that is to say the Eucharist.

2:56 pm  
Blogger KosmicEggburst said...

Yes, a very clear exposition this is. The Zwinglian memorialist sketching seems to be anti-real presence(if that is accurate), and at best a fragmentary dangling participle of a eucharistic anamnesis. It is possible I suppose to work with the Zwinglian model, but only through anamnesis development.

One might ask then if Zwinglians are so adamant about it being a mental remembrance at a table, why do they refer to it as an "altar call"?

9:50 am  

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